These writings are basically a copy from a great discussion I had on a private list of respected magicians…enjoy
I use to get so excited and revved up about this topic but I've debated it too many times. I’ve posted on other blogs, argued on lists and have read where magicians have gone back and forth about this topic SO here is where I stand based on EXPERINCE:
Basically the topic begins on a matter of degree and the certainty beyond imagination and clear channel in which one is -really- interacting with a spirit. I’ve found the people who argue the most against physical -appearance- and audibly hearing the spirit, are those who have never achieved it and who have never taken the time to TRY the operation as it is given in the grimoire.
Claiming something does or does not work a certain way without really having the experience in it, is obvious faulty reasoning.
The Solomonic list as well as others go on and on about this topic. Many of the posts are the sum of justifications for never really going all the way conducting the grimoric operation (as it is given in the text) while claiming to be some authority on the matter.
I don't argue this topic with these magicians anymore. Some are quite gifted but still have no real experience in working a grimoric operation. To immediately jump to ATR methods, substitute folk methods or other ways before trying out the written instructions gives a magician ZERO experience working the grimoire. The amount of crap I've heard is astonishing consisting of every single justification, excuse, and reasoning known. I have yet to hear “I’ve constructed everything and performed the ritual just as it is given hundreeds of times and THEN I gave up.” You don’t hear that argument. Very few have impressed me or led me to believe they have gotten the true nature as to what any grimoire is about.
I don't argue this topic with these magicians anymore. Some are quite gifted but still have no real experience in working a grimoric operation. To immediately jump to ATR methods, substitute folk methods or other ways before trying out the written instructions gives a magician ZERO experience working the grimoire. The amount of crap I've heard is astonishing consisting of every single justification, excuse, and reasoning known. I have yet to hear “I’ve constructed everything and performed the ritual just as it is given hundreeds of times and THEN I gave up.” You don’t hear that argument. Very few have impressed me or led me to believe they have gotten the true nature as to what any grimoire is about.
I have read where magicians say they did an impromptu evocation of so and so Goetia Spirit and they received the results they asked for even though they never saw or heard the spirit. To me this is not a successful account of an evocation. The answers to their requests could have been brought about by sympathetic magick, a local land spirit, their unconscious, spirit of an ancestor, the specter of the closet mop lady, or any number of possibilities, not to mention coincidence. This is a successful fulfillment of the “wish” or request, NOT the contact of the spirit they thought accomplished their task. It may have been, but just as easily may not have.
It would be like sending out a general email to a worldwide post with the heading “Pamela Anderson” asking for a signed photograph. Getting one in the mail a week later does not entail it came from her and would most likely be from anyone but her. The request was granted, but who knows from where or who. Many folks are satisfied with this type of “magick” but not me.
It would be like sending out a general email to a worldwide post with the heading “Pamela Anderson” asking for a signed photograph. Getting one in the mail a week later does not entail it came from her and would most likely be from anyone but her. The request was granted, but who knows from where or who. Many folks are satisfied with this type of “magick” but not me.
When it comes to specific spiritual beings I try to be as discerning as I can before claiming anything. Previous to the DSIC operation, I made contact with a few of the planetary angels I was quite sure I was “familiar” with. ( Such as Sachiel) After what I’ve experienced with the Trithemius art, I couldn’t be sure if I had contacted them, one of their subordinate (messenger spirits) or something else entirely that was of similar persuasion. The interaction was on a whole new level and felt as if I was “meeting” them for the first time.
(Perhaps its all my personal perspective of getting slightly closer to the ‘Source’)
Even now I am certain I have not witnessed the entirety of what some of these beings really are and I never care to. It’s been difficult fulfilling some day to day responsibilities with the lingering effects of their presence. I’m sure some aspects of my life have suffered in my attempts to cram so much cosmic goings-on into my little head while still trying to be “Mr. Successful Mundane”. True skrying is perfectly viable for these dealings. The effects can still be similar with the spirit’s presence impacting the atmosphere {signs of their arrival} and may still cause seemingly physical effects in the immediate environment. It does not have to be an evocation to “physical appearance” although I believe this is at the high end of the scale concerning spiritual contact. For me, its about my level of certainty and revelation that I’ve truly met a being beyond my own head. I may not completely understand what/who I’ve experienced, but at least I’m certain I did experience it. I can point out direct examples of how my life has improved or gifts of a certain kidn have obviously been bestowed upon me by the spirits I’ve talked to. However, I think the experience of them has been the hugest life changing phenomena I could ever relate.
(Perhaps its all my personal perspective of getting slightly closer to the ‘Source’)
Even now I am certain I have not witnessed the entirety of what some of these beings really are and I never care to. It’s been difficult fulfilling some day to day responsibilities with the lingering effects of their presence. I’m sure some aspects of my life have suffered in my attempts to cram so much cosmic goings-on into my little head while still trying to be “Mr. Successful Mundane”. True skrying is perfectly viable for these dealings. The effects can still be similar with the spirit’s presence impacting the atmosphere {signs of their arrival} and may still cause seemingly physical effects in the immediate environment. It does not have to be an evocation to “physical appearance” although I believe this is at the high end of the scale concerning spiritual contact. For me, its about my level of certainty and revelation that I’ve truly met a being beyond my own head. I may not completely understand what/who I’ve experienced, but at least I’m certain I did experience it. I can point out direct examples of how my life has improved or gifts of a certain kidn have obviously been bestowed upon me by the spirits I’ve talked to. However, I think the experience of them has been the hugest life changing phenomena I could ever relate.
After what I've experienced, I can understand how how most people might enjoy using simpler forms of invocation/evocation. .. At least in some cases, it would be more agreeable to use methods other than grimoric evocation to garner help from spiritual beings.
The degree of spirit-human interaction I believe can have a staunch impact on the psyche and field/spectrum-reality of the magician. It hasn't become "common" or "comfortable", for me and is still rather taxing at times. It is worth it in every fraction of the experience though.
I have come to believe that when a spirit, (demon or angel) is compelled to make its presence physically known, it bends a lot of "rules" and the unnaturalness of the event causes some sort of stress on the immediate environment as well as the magician. (Possibly the spirit as well) The degree or magnitude of the spirit’s presence can cause what Lisiewski (Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation/Howlings) termed the "slingshot" effect and others "paradox". Basically, difficulties and incursions (which seem to manifest after an operation where the spirit appeared and affected the physical environment) occur in awkward manners in order to restore "normalcy". At least that is how it has appeared to me and has caused some interesting and frustrating repercussions.
It seems like the conjured spirit has little if any involvement in these occurrences, and it is reality itself or a "moderator" which causes this phenomena to occur.
The degree of spirit-human interaction I believe can have a staunch impact on the psyche and field/spectrum-reality of the magician. It hasn't become "common" or "comfortable", for me and is still rather taxing at times. It is worth it in every fraction of the experience though.
I have come to believe that when a spirit, (demon or angel) is compelled to make its presence physically known, it bends a lot of "rules" and the unnaturalness of the event causes some sort of stress on the immediate environment as well as the magician. (Possibly the spirit as well) The degree or magnitude of the spirit’s presence can cause what Lisiewski (Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation/Howlings) termed the "slingshot" effect and others "paradox". Basically, difficulties and incursions (which seem to manifest after an operation where the spirit appeared and affected the physical environment) occur in awkward manners in order to restore "normalcy". At least that is how it has appeared to me and has caused some interesting and frustrating repercussions.
It seems like the conjured spirit has little if any involvement in these occurrences, and it is reality itself or a "moderator" which causes this phenomena to occur.
-Then why perform these sorts of evocations at all? -
The beings can be disturbing, bring nightmares, can leave you feeling more than a bit uneasy and cause that slingshot thing to occur. …….The reason is,
The beings can be disturbing, bring nightmares, can leave you feeling more than a bit uneasy and cause that slingshot thing to occur. …….The reason is,
-The Affirmation of Introduction.
When I first attempted to conjure a Goetic Spirit it was interesting, spooky, and very much- VUAGE. I realized later I had no real confirmation of exactly what (if anything substantial) had been evoked. I could have contacted a weird vision of deceased ancestor for all I really knew. I saw an image yes, but it appeared like an apparition and did not “speak” so far as I could hear. It was a first step, something had happened, I got a sense that it (the grimoire) could at least “work”.
Before my grimoire obsession, I made many attempts to contact other beings, mostly Celtic related: Fae, godforms, genius loci, and Sidhe (ironically all following under or about the same heading). I experienced a few intense OBE/astral encounters where the being was seen and heard very clearly. Other times I made offerings and spoke aloud to spirits in the forest I couldn’t really “see” but indefinitely felt were there. I received the results I asked for and found this practice very agreeable which is why I continue it to this day. My intuition leads me to believe, spirits appreciate this type of interaction above many others. I felt my relations to the unseen inhabitants grow but wasn’t exactly sure who or what.
-In ceremonial/grimoric magick however, my goal is to {initially} contact a certain sprit, greet them face to face, become acquainted with them, first before asking anything from them. I cannot settle for anything generic because I cannot be certain of what/who is appearing and what/who is doing what for me. Results or gains have always been secondary on my list of goals concerning evocation. If I just needed something done, I’d most likely do anything other than evocation of a powerful spirit.
When I first attempted to conjure a Goetic Spirit it was interesting, spooky, and very much- VUAGE. I realized later I had no real confirmation of exactly what (if anything substantial) had been evoked. I could have contacted a weird vision of deceased ancestor for all I really knew. I saw an image yes, but it appeared like an apparition and did not “speak” so far as I could hear. It was a first step, something had happened, I got a sense that it (the grimoire) could at least “work”.
Before my grimoire obsession, I made many attempts to contact other beings, mostly Celtic related: Fae, godforms, genius loci, and Sidhe (ironically all following under or about the same heading). I experienced a few intense OBE/astral encounters where the being was seen and heard very clearly. Other times I made offerings and spoke aloud to spirits in the forest I couldn’t really “see” but indefinitely felt were there. I received the results I asked for and found this practice very agreeable which is why I continue it to this day. My intuition leads me to believe, spirits appreciate this type of interaction above many others. I felt my relations to the unseen inhabitants grow but wasn’t exactly sure who or what.
-In ceremonial/grimoric magick however, my goal is to {initially} contact a certain sprit, greet them face to face, become acquainted with them, first before asking anything from them. I cannot settle for anything generic because I cannot be certain of what/who is appearing and what/who is doing what for me. Results or gains have always been secondary on my list of goals concerning evocation. If I just needed something done, I’d most likely do anything other than evocation of a powerful spirit.
The topic of angelic evocation has been bantered about on a certain list as a few people have been posting in about their idle conversations with METETRON, of all angels. I cannot help but scoff just a bit and roll my eyes. If any interaction had taken place it was such a fractioned piece of a fraction that it would hardly be worth mentioning. Spirits can work in any manner they chose and this is not to say Metetron could not speak with these people.
Yet, again, it’s a matter of degree and channel. Just because I received a telegram from The Prime Minister’s assistant who dictated a reply to a secretary, does not mean I have any indication of whom or what the Prime minister is about. I got a reply sure, but from whom? For some, simply getting a reply is good enough. It was for me when I was just trying this stuff out, but I’m a little more skeptical with myself and the spirits these days and want to make sure I’m contacting who I intend. However, after initial contact, I am much apt to utilize a system like Josh’s or something simpler to make requests as I care less about ‘who’ accomplished them and more about getting it done. I feel more confident after initial introduction that I can contact the correct angel/spirit/demon/being after already meeting them. Each feels a bit different to me. Asking something from someone/thing I’ve never really met seems a little assuming if not rude. ( I like to ask the spirit what its able to do for me instead of just assuming it can because the grimore or another magician told me so)
"Real" results -to me anyway-, consist of beholding something in the UTMOST certainty possible. That is, perceiving and communicating clearly with the spirit I am contacting. I bypass this rule during some other magical workings with spirits besides grimoric evocation. I use the conjurations the grimoires use which state the spirit is to "come visibly and affably, speak unto me with a Clear voice Intelligible" anything besides this is a breaking of the stated terms and thus not a fulfillment of them. It keeps sincerity and integrity in what the operation is about. I didn't spend years crafting belts out of expensive lion hide, days painting a circle, and months memorizing the conjurations for an ambiguous event in where I am not certain of what I experienced.
Magic, especially tradition, art based ritual magic is a slippery slope for those who begin to rationalize away and cut corners from the start.....I have yet to see where a magician has not compromised to the point of abandoning the art for a more imagery game style of "magic" when it comes to evocation.... ..
Although Joe Lisiewski's writings tend to fume me and I see where hes stepped a bit beyond his humility ;-) I understand his scoffs at most "New Agers" out there and all the boasting "modified magicians" .....its a bit difficult to take ANYONE serious after you've actually witnessed the poundings on the wall, flashes of light, smells, moans, screams, voices, and visible appearance of a spirit...while these self-proclaimed authorities say these types phenomena don't really matter, or they don't really happen, or don't denote true success of an evocation. To me, its a cop out, I smile yet feel sorry for the new magicians who settle for these words. a huge Light show is not required, but are the results of a profound spiritual evocation on the physical realm.
Now, let me CLARIFY some terminology: "Physical Appearance" confuses some into thinking that the magician meant a spirit "came into physical form". I don't think any respectable magicians have quite gone so far to claim a spirit became physically tangible. .
The spirit's degree of possible 'interaction' with the physical world is something on paradoxical scale though. The most dynamic evidence of their presence besides their visible appearance is the poltergeist type activity: Winds, sounds, banging, objects moving, etc which seem to have no logical source. I've experienced this only a handful of times in my life but it is quite apparent and not vague in any way.
.... There always seems to be repercussions from the 'unnaturalness' of these events after which I don't think is necessarily caused by the evoked spirit themselves. Some sort of strain or hiccup in the natural flow of things
.... There always seems to be repercussions from the 'unnaturalness' of these events after which I don't think is necessarily caused by the evoked spirit themselves. Some sort of strain or hiccup in the natural flow of things
.. An excellent story I heard from my anthropology class was about a researcher who went to investigate the powers of a shaman somewhere in the south Asian jungles. The shaman was curing an afflicted boy who's disease was caused by a local demon the village people said. .... During the exorcism, the tribes folk all saw the demon fly out of the boy and break a limb of a tree with its body as it left. The anthropologist was present, felt strong winds arise and witnessed the breaking limb but could not see the demon.... A great case study as I recall, the researcher was amazed and quite disturbed but didn't have the "aptitude" or mental language to see the spirit directly.. In the realm of hypnosis and mental/unconscious comprehension ... You see this a lot.
….SIDE THOUGHT…..
Something interesting to note which I learned recently is that astrophysicists now agree that "Energy can become/turn into matter" A prospect that was rather fantastical sounding until recently. For them it has given credence to the "Big Boom" .."creating SOMETHING out of "NOTHING" ...It was exciting for me to learn because the more the explained it, the more magical/divine is sounded in rational terms.(it had to happen just so)...Energy when moved a very certain way (i.e intelligently) can create matter....The scientist have theorized on the "how" but not exactly "what" causes or can cause this to happen.
Despite my advocacy for visibly seen and directly heard spirits during magical evocation, I also argue how ridiculous it is for ANYTHING spiritual/nonphysical to need to LOOK like anything at all. That is to say I doubt fairly highly that spirits in their natural state look like anything at all or reside in places that have obviously physical references. "Heaven is a place paced with streets of gold..etc." When we see Goetia spirits as a combination of various animals and anthropomorphic features, I think it is the attempt of our brains trying to decode purely spiritual and symbolic concepts into "physical" or visible representations...
This is a conclusion I came to after the length of time I spent experimenting with various people using hypnosis.
If someone has no subconscious frame of reference for a "thing" they cannot see it, cannot know it. Ironically this does not apply strictly to the spiritual....People have trouble SEEING something physically presences when they do not have a frame of reference for it. The brain will actually scramble to correlate something to what they know, often causing falters in observation and comprehension of what they are actually seeing. The reason why eyewitness and recalled memories are often not based on "fact" at all. Human beings are very poor observers when the multitude of variables are considered.
I see the complete act of magical/grimoric evocation as a way of actively altering the mind and comprehension sensors to be able to behold intelligences which are otherwise sublime and enigmatic to the point of being 'vague invisibilities'. The involvement of the divine to help achieve this phenomena on our behalf, as well as the rigorous dedication which is needed to achieve these ends allows the experience to take place. The true reaction of which is what is described as "Divine Bliss" by Lisiewski. A very intense and unique experience which is why I cannot give much credence to the CASUAL SUMMONER who acts as if such feats are every day and cause little impact on his psyche.
What Lisiewski is describing, as well as myself, a few others are not the "spirit pot interactions", tending to the shrines and ongoing relations with ancestor spirits, or petitions to spirits of various loci... These ARE veritable magical practices but NOT what the grimories are describing.....It frustrates me to see where current magicians are devolving the practices of the grimories into these methopds when they are quite obviously NOT the same practices.
If someone has no subconscious frame of reference for a "thing" they cannot see it, cannot know it. Ironically this does not apply strictly to the spiritual....People have trouble SEEING something physically presences when they do not have a frame of reference for it. The brain will actually scramble to correlate something to what they know, often causing falters in observation and comprehension of what they are actually seeing. The reason why eyewitness and recalled memories are often not based on "fact" at all. Human beings are very poor observers when the multitude of variables are considered.
I see the complete act of magical/grimoric evocation as a way of actively altering the mind and comprehension sensors to be able to behold intelligences which are otherwise sublime and enigmatic to the point of being 'vague invisibilities'. The involvement of the divine to help achieve this phenomena on our behalf, as well as the rigorous dedication which is needed to achieve these ends allows the experience to take place. The true reaction of which is what is described as "Divine Bliss" by Lisiewski. A very intense and unique experience which is why I cannot give much credence to the CASUAL SUMMONER who acts as if such feats are every day and cause little impact on his psyche.
What Lisiewski is describing, as well as myself, a few others are not the "spirit pot interactions", tending to the shrines and ongoing relations with ancestor spirits, or petitions to spirits of various loci... These ARE veritable magical practices but NOT what the grimories are describing.....It frustrates me to see where current magicians are devolving the practices of the grimories into these methopds when they are quite obviously NOT the same practices.
..The state I was in in which the most intense and apparent phenomena occurred was when I was in a similar state of 'transcendence' I guess you could say from normal thought. Those times which are difficult to explain due to the lack of removed analytical reasoning. I had stopped 'thinking' about the evocation and and trying to make things happening and things 'were just happening' I was filled with such intense states of awareness I was unable to examine my 'awareness' until afterward. I did not expect anything to happen but KNEW what I was going to experience. The moments where I had no doubts, no arguments, no examinations beyond what was going on..( The (The mind stops analyzing the conjurations and each word is a certainty of express, for reaction) .INTENSE power and CERTAINTY which I continue to attribute to God: something way beyond "myself" weather from my HGA directly or the Source o Creation or both...it was if both and either did not matter as all was within at that time....That feeling of everything coming into alignment.. "Bliss" i guess is a good description. Its amazing but the times after can get strange and sort of backlash....Conception of reality and logical flow seems to get fragmented a bit....